SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hey Ash, how are you?

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

I'm doing well today. How are you?

SPEAKER_00: 0:03

Me too. I'm good. I'm excited again because we kind of just keep tackling these Reddit topics. One of them that really hit me in my heart when I read it, and I didn't prepare you for any of these on purpose. I just want your natural reaction. So I'm going to read to you right now what this one was. It said, I'm an excellent employee, but I really have learned that I don't have what it takes to be a leader. My awkward personality and anxiety make me ineffective. People see right through me and can hear the shakiness in my voice. I got overloaded and stressed out with some issues. This has worn me down and burnt me out. I don't think I'm meant for this. Yeah. The mom and you just made that face 100%. So I know where my initial gut went. I'm curious when you hear that from somebody in a leadership position, what what would you say if they were saying that directly to you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00

I will, if I didn't know their experience and background, that would be my first question. Because it sounds like her heart is in the right place and her desire to be a leader is there, which is great. That's more than half the battle. So she hasn't been given the skill set to overcome those feelings, how to have those conversations, how to be confident. That would be where my first first my where my mind went because it's a skill. These are all skills that you just have to constantly work at and be educated and trained on.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31

What about yours?

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

So I'm with you. I think my my response is very aligned with your response because my first thought was oh, this is somebody with some self-awareness. Like this is somebody actually thinking about whether they're good at this or not. And I think, like you said, that's another half the battle. Like that is a big piece because this person cares enough to analyze how they're doing at it and they're being critical of themselves. And I appreciate the fact that they're not just making assumptions and they're obviously no ego is at play, which is awesome. So this is where I align with you 100% is that I think we make the mistake of believing that confidence is something you have or you don't have. That's not true. Confidence is something you gain through practice and knowledge. So the more you know about a topic and the more you practice the skills, the more confident you become. I wanted to throw up the first time I had to do a presentation in front of people, like literally want to throw up. Shaking, anxious, want to like sick to my stomach. That is not an issue anymore. And it's and it's not be I was not born with the skill to be able to public speak. There's no way. It only got better the more that I did it and the more that I was talking about topics that I understood and had experience in. So I think this manager with some training would be a phenomenal leader because they care about whether they're a good leader or not. Um, do you think confidence is something you have to be born with?

SPEAKER_01: 3:15

No. And I am having all kinds of conversations about this in my life with my coaching clients, with my children, with athletics. It's built through action, like you said. It is just not you wake up one day and say, Wow, I'm I'm just gonna be 100% positive and confident that I'm gonna go do this. It's something that you have to work towards every single day, whether it's your mindset, it's a conversation, it's a physical thing you have to do, but it takes practice and patience as well. And it also has to be done consistently. Like you can't just think about it one time and then you think you're gonna do it and be confident in doing it. It has to be that consistent action, and that's where your confidence comes in. And a lot of people, you know, I think the world is understanding where it just choose a confident person or they're not a confident person, and it's just part of their personality, and that is not the case.

SPEAKER_00: 4:09

No, and it's hard to watch when people are struggling with something or have fear, they believe that the people that are good at this, whatever that thing is, don't have fear. It's not true. Successful people have just figured out how to have fear and do it anyway. That's it. Because my fear of public speaking was pretty debilitating. I remember even I was a maid of honor for my best friend, and we were very young. She got married like at 22 or 23. We were young, and I knew I had to give that made of honor speech. And again, talk about needing therapy during that time because I was so worked up that I would have to go up and do this little speech and shaking walking up the aisle with those with that bouquet because people were looking at me. I think about that person, and I'm like, that's not me now. Right. And I still get fear before I do a talk in front of people. That initial, when they're announcing you or giving your bio, that little whatever that is, 30 seconds or a minute, there it is again. On my stomach's like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01: 5:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 5:09

The minute I start, I'm fine. So it takes it just takes that practice. But I think we convince ourselves that the confident people don't have fear. It's not it at all. They have worked through the fear or they still have fear and they just do it anyway. So to be successful, you're gonna have fear. So I think accepting the fact that you're going to have fear, especially anything new that you do, just accept that as part of the deal. If you want to be successful, you're gonna have to figure out how to move through it.

SPEAKER_01: 5:39

Yes, and just do it anyway. Yeah, I'm gonna piggyback off that too, because this is also part of it is being feeling uncomfortable. So you have fear, and then you're just out of your comfort zone. And that's how you grow. That's how we grow as people. That's how you grow in confidence that we're talking about. Yes. And you just have to break through that, break through the fear, break through being uncomfortable, and just understand I'm gonna have it, I'm gonna be uncomfortable, but the end result is gonna be better than I am now, and I will learn and grow through that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:08

I I've got to tell you, this also happened, and this is embarrassing but hilarious. So when I first started working on those leadership programs, and I knew I would have to get them marketed because it's different here with my clients. I had referral after referral after referral. I never had to do any marketing. That was a gift, it was wonderful. I'm I'm blessed that that happened. But when I started making these programs, I'm like, well, that isn't gonna cut it. I have to get this out. So I was talking to my daughter the one day, and I said, like, I've got to get these things out. She's like, you need to be in front of the camera. You've got to talk to people because when you talk to people about your stuff, they fall in love with it. I was like, No, I'm not doing that. I had zero desire to ever create a video that was gonna be me talking. I said to her, I'm not doing it. She's so we left it a couple months later. We're having the same discussion. She's like, you are your program. You need to be in front of the camera. And we went back and forth. I said, I'm not doing those. I just feel stupid and awkward. I hate talking to myself. I gotta hate it. And she makes awesome videos. She's creative and awesome. So anyway, she's like, do one right now. That's really bad. Do one right now. Just make like a one-minute, just talk about anything with your leadership, make the video, talk to yourself on it, and send it to me. I'm like, so again, fighting her, this is ridiculous. I'm not doing it. You're gonna laugh at me. She's like, I'm not, just do it and send it to me. Ashley, I do this video, I send it to her, and this is the text I get back. I love that you did this. You had your camera facing the wrong way, and all I can hear is you talking. All I can hear is you talking, and it's the wall. Oh my goodness. And I'm like, Oh, this helped me a lot. I'm definitely doing this. She was dying. So, anyway, it but now to think, how many TikTok videos do I have up? I'm not saying they're good, but I do them and I don't think about it. I just go on and do them now. We're doing this right now. I'm fine, it's not perfect. I got gray on the side of my head. Who cares? Like you get where it just doesn't feel like it did the first time or thinking about it before. Yeah. Okay, 100%. So let me go to another one here. Okay, so this one, this one's a little tricky. Okay. Is it possible to become a leader without having a strong, deep voice? What are some suggestions you can give to a person whose voice is soft and not fluent? Is there any chance for a person like this to become a leader? It's a little tricky.

SPEAKER_01: 8:45

Wow, that's an interesting. I haven't ever heard that question before. That's good. Um, you can definitely be a leader without a strong, deep voice because this is one thing too. I wish I could recognize and paid attention more as I was leading in the hospital. Introverts are very good leaders, just as good, just as well as the extroverts. And they have a soft spoken voice typically, usually, but they still get their point across in different ways. It's you know, the one-on-one conversations with them, or it's painting the big picture, even if you're having a meeting, you don't have to be loud and vibrant and all of that. You can still just have a normal conversation in time, you can still make as much impact as you would as someone who is the loudest in the room, or their their volume carries weight. You can definitely be effective that way, just being a softer person. And some people might gravitate to that more. You know, a lot of people don't necessarily relate to the big personalities all the time. Sometimes they get kind of pushed off, or just like, wow, that was a lot. You would be surprised how many people do gravitate to the softer, calmer type of leader because they can relate more or they feel a better calming presence with them, they calm themselves down and their team. So no, you do not have to have that loud, deep, distinct voice.

SPEAKER_00: 10:11

You gave the perfect answer. I agree with you. I I've been called intimidating before, and that bothers me because I always think of that as a really negative thing, like intimidating, like you're aggressive, but it's not. It's because when you're a confident person, it it can make people feel like, oh, there's no room in the room for me. I understand when you have a loud voice or or you're somebody who is okay to give your opinion if asked, you're okay to give your thoughts, it can feel intimidating. So I think there isn't a right or wrong. Both personalities can be very strong leaders, both. I think the key, if I had to give somebody a piece of advice who was more quiet and soft-spoken, I would say just work on the confidence piece, like we talked about earlier. If you know your stuff and you're able to say, here, like I'm not the loudest voice in the room, but here's what I know to be true. You will captivate people and they will listen to you because a lot of people tune out noise. So when you're soft spoken and you're factual and you know your stuff, people tend to connect very well with that and hear you. And the other part of this is remember if you're the quieter one, you're probably the better listener a lot of the times, which will make you a very effective leader because you're taking things in, you're paying attention, you're listening to what's being said, you're not the one filling all the space with your own words. So I believe, yes, you can be quiet and soft spoken and be a very strong leader. Okay. This one, I've just started on a leadership journey a few weeks back. I manage around 10 people. Today was a slightly rough day. My manager was being pressed by the other department for a fault in the workflow. She saw me and immediately deflected the complaints to me. I responded, I've talked to the team already. To which she said, Why aren't they following your directions then? In front of everybody, she said this. Oh man, this felt like such a personal attack. She knows they listened to me. They listen more than I actually anticipated they would since I've just started in this position. I felt like I just got hit really hard and it's only been a few weeks, and I've put in a lot of hours into this, and now I'm feeling really defeated. I just want to learn how I can take less things personally. Listen to this part. P.S. I have no formal authority. I have not been declared as the leader yet. I've just been acting as the leader in an informal role. That's what blew me away.

SPEAKER_01: 12:48

That's pretty amazing that they're stepping out without an actual title.

SPEAKER_00: 12:51

Which is leadership. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

Well, first, I know the question, but the fact that they have to address this person one-on-one and tell them how that comment made them feel, and then also how they feel their team looks at them because of that comment is extremely important. And that's an uncomfortable conversation that has to happen. Um, and probably need some coaching through that if he's not a hundred percent of what to say.

SPEAKER_00: 13:18

Can I can I interject for just one second? Because I I think you're saying it, and I just want to make sure it's very clear. The person who showed poor leadership in that moment was not this person we're talking about, it's the person who made that comment. So, right off the top, that should have never happened. That is really, really poor leadership to ever deflect like that and embarrass somebody who, by the way, isn't even in a management position, who's stepping up and sounds like doing a good job. So, to embarrass this person in the first place is really wrong. And I want to make sure that we're we're saying that. And there is no way to not have been taking that personally. That's a silly thing for people to think, don't take it personally, but you made it personal when you just did that in front of everybody. Poor person who's not even technically in the management spot has just been dealt a hand that is unfair. Correct. 100%. And I know you and I have talked about this before. They shouldn't have to have that conversation because it's not even technically their team.

unknown: 14:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

So they're gonna be in an awkward position, even dealing with this person. And if this person is somebody who already deflects, I don't know how effective that conversation's even gonna go.

SPEAKER_01: 14:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:27

So what would you say to this person, knowing that they probably can't have that conversation with this one and and won't? What else could we say to him to help with this situation?

SPEAKER_01: 14:39

I would talk to him about his confidence and his role. And he already knows who mentioned of the impact he's making, the hours he's putting in, um, that his team is giving him great feedback from doing the work that they said they were gonna do, and focus on that more than this outside person, bringing those negative feelings and comments into what he's trying to accomplish and keep pushing forward that way. Um that would be, of course, my advice to him about that.

SPEAKER_00: 15:07

And I agree with you. I would say to this person, I want you maybe to consider what your measuring stick is for you. How do you know you're doing well? To me, you know you're doing well by the outcome with your team and the relationships you have with the members on your team. If that feels good, if that's working, to me, that means more than this person who I think was just trying to get themselves out of trouble and put it over to you. So it as much as that sucks, and we can work on this as we go. If this becomes more of a problem with this person, then we can work on how you address this. But for now, have your measuring stick be how you know you're doing yourself and with your team. Okay. This one kind of floored me. Listen to the very first line. I know shame is a huge motivator for some people, and I assume this is why it is being used by one of our leaders. Is this a common practice? There has been a lack of training for several new staff, and unfortunately, this person doesn't seem to realize or care, and instead is taking a shame-based approach to ensure that the team stops making mistakes. It's hurting morale. There's nothing more I can do but sit back and watch the team lose confidence and have a magnifying glass glaring at them publicly. How can I and my team navig navigate this person that uses shame to motivate?

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

This is a tricky one because this leader is not leading the right way. There's no empowerment whatsoever. I'm sure ego has a lot to do with the shame and power that they are seeking and just putting on their team. Um, I'm always a big profan proponent of conversations, but you they just have to tread lately with how they're gonna approach this leader, if they feel it's gonna make a difference or not. What does that look like? If they're seeing the effect of this leader on the other teammates, and like they said, just doing as they're told and being micromanaged every single day. The culture is broken, obviously, and it's extremely toxic. I don't know if this person feels comfortable standing up and having that conversation and making it known how the team is feeling or what they are seeing. Um that is, like I said, a sticky subject or thing to wal walk through. Um so that would be my first advice is to just see where they are with having that conversation, if it's they think it's be beneficial or not. Now, again, I don't know what this person is, their role in the company, but they can still drive and empower their teammates as they're doing things. They could be that positive light or focus, even though the boss is just constantly pressing them down. So that's they could we could have that conversation with them too. And if they truly feel they cannot go through their leader, I'm going to talk to some another leader about it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:56

I agree with you. Everything you said.

SPEAKER_01: 17:57

Yeah. That would be my next focus if you know getting more background information on what that situation in a relationship looks like.

SPEAKER_00: 18:04

That's a very old school way, right? It's very demeaning and authoritarian, and and you embarrass people, you yell at them, you make them feel bad, and then they're gonna do good work. That's an old school way. And fear-based leadership, and that's what I call that one, where it's based on ego for sure. I'm the boss, you do what I say when I say it, and there's no questions. And if not, I'm gonna yell at you in front of people because it sets a really good example. Everybody gets to see that I'm yelling at you, so then they do a better job because they don't want to get yelled at. That fear-based mentality, I always say it does gain obedience. I will say that. People will tread lightly because they don't want to be yelled at or embarrassed or shamed. So they'll work their butts off to do their job. What I can tell you is it is short-lived and your company will not grow properly because people will not stay, especially today, they will not stay in that environment long term. Number one, and they will not produce their best work under those circumstances. They will not be innovative or come up with ideas because all they're worried about is doing what I'm told, get it done, do my job, nothing more, don't engage, just do my job. That is a very toxic environment and stagnant and does not grow. So, in the short term, fear-based leadership will get you results. I spoke with one owner of a company and he's such a good man. You get to know him, he is, but wow, he is wired for that old way. And he's younger than me. I don't get it, but upbringing, it's it's generational. And he said, Karen, people keep quitting and I don't get along well with my staff. And I said, Okay, well, let's talk about that. He said, Well, they're all scared of me. And to tell you the truth, I'm not sure I'm gonna change that because we're very profitable. I couldn't argue. His company is very profitable, he's growing by leaps and bounds. So it's really hard to talk to somebody about changing something when what they're doing financially is working. Can't say they're not successful. That's right. Here's what I said to him what does it cost you every time you have to train somebody new? Do we know that figure? And he did. And I said, How much does it cost you in time and revenue every time you train somebody new? And he gave me that amount. I said, How many times have you had to do that? So those are real numbers. Also, what does it cost you in ideas that you'll never know about? Because there's no way anybody is comfortable coming to you and talking to you about ideas, number one. What does it also cost you in mistakes that you don't know about? Because again, who the hell is coming to you and telling you they made a mistake when you're about to rip their head off every 20 seconds? So if you start to put money on that, and if profit is everything that you're gauging this on, how much more profitable would you be if you had happy employees who stayed long term, who excelled at their job, who shared ideas, and who told you before a mistake grew into a big, huge problem if they told you when it was small, how much more profitable would you be? Right. That spoke to him. It's hard for people because you're just looking at it so black and white. Well, they're scared of me, which is good. They do their job. But guess what? People will do their job and get along with you too. Okay. Uh question Do you have to be heartless to thrive in a big corporation? I'm starting to lose hope that I'm just not the right fit for these kind of roles. If this means sacrificing caring about people, I inherently care about them. But in my company, and I don't think my company alone, the culture seems not to care. I get it. You work to get paid. That's the bottom line. I guess now I feel like I've been naive thinking that people could still care and get paid. I've been lucky to work with people who have fun and work hard. It didn't seem like politics was a huge thing. I guess I was shielded from shielded from it before I got into this position. So now I'm wondering if it is unrealistic for me to be able to thrive and be a good leader and still care about my people. So sad.

SPEAKER_01: 22:14

That's a great question. So, yes, you can still have a heart and passion for people and focus on your teams and the values and bring them where they need to be and develop those relationships. I agree with that a hundred percent. But there will come a time if your values and who you are as a person and a leader does not align with the organization or business. You can only go so far. Um, speaking from experience, I focus on my team so much and put my heart and soul into them that there became a point where my values and their values, even on paper, they matched. The company was doing something else. And I really had to sit down and weigh out my options. And it just I didn't align with them. So that might happen in with this person where there comes a time where that alignment is very important to them, and the impact on their team, they can only go so far because of that.

SPEAKER_00: 23:10

Yeah. So what you're saying is it wasn't your team you weren't aligned with. You were caring about your team, your team and you were aligned, but you could only go so far because what was out of alignment was where your executive team, your superiors, your company itself, their values weren't aligned with that. So you could only take your team so far. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:32

That was a hard environment. But again, like I said, the values on paper were right there. I mean, we aligned.

unknown: 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:39

But we all know actions speak louder than words. So that was the disconnection that was happening.

SPEAKER_00: 23:45

Yeah. I left a company. Well, this was many years ago and started my own because I was so frustrated. It was a small company, but quite a quite a few employees for a small company. And I was the manager, just under the owners, the two owners that worked actively in the company, and then me and then all the staff. And little tiny things like somebody needed to go home early to pick up their kid from something. The shifts are covered, we're all there, everything's good. No, they're scheduled till four. I'm like, okay, I know they're scheduled till four. This person never asks for favors. There's something special going on. Why is this an issue? Well, because we're setting a precedence. If we let her go home at four, then he's gonna want to go home next week at four. This is all ego and power, and I don't get it. If we treat people well, so this time we say to her, listen, it's a special circumstance, we're gonna let you go early, enjoy the rest of your day. You don't think that person's gonna want to give 110% the next time or cover for somebody else or help? And if they do take advantage of it, then you can address that later. But right now, you got hardworking people who bust their ass, bring in money for you. Why? And these things just kept happening. It was a lot of ego, and they wanted me to have ego along with them because we're at the top and these guys are down here, and I don't play like that. So I'm like, no, they're here even with us. Yes. If you treat them like they're below you, you don't think they feel that? It's very hard because I went as far as you could go with that company. But I was losing every day in arguments about what I believed was right. So I feel for you, you were working with big teams, big corporation, but that same philosophy, it just does not work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:32

No, and it's hard too when you like love your team, work very hard with them to get them where they need to be, and you truly are a cohesive unit. That's a very hard situation to be in because your passion is for them, as it should be as a leader. Yeah, but these things from the outside also weigh heavily on how you are and the impact you can make. But no, you don't have to be heartless to be a leader. Please don't be.

SPEAKER_00: 25:56

Let's not go that route. Have your heart all the way up there and uh present and available. Yes. Okay, Ashley, we're gonna cut this one off for today and we'll come back and do some more. I really enjoyed this today.

SPEAKER_01: 26:09

Those were great questions. Yes. Thank you.